The Side Effects of Statins

One of the biggest questions facing clinical cardiology today is the decision on when to treat healthy people with statin drugs. Data from randomized clinical trials show that such treatment may be beneficial for individuals with high risk of developing cardiovascular disease. However, statins are not without side effects, therefore we have to be sure that the risk of harm does not outweigh the presumed benefits.

Statins lower blood cholesterol. They also appear to have a few other effects which may be beneficial for people with established cardiovascular disease. Randomized clinical trials have shown that statins reduce the risk of death and new cardiovascular events among individuals with coronary heart disease. Not prescribing statins to people who may benefit from such therapy is considered bad medical practice, unless the patient is intolerant to statin treatment.

If implemented, the 2013 ACC/AHA guidelines on primary prevention will lead to a much higher number of healthy individuals receiving statin therapy. In fact, more than 70 percent of people older than 60 years may become eligible for such treatment. The major criticisms of the guidelines as they pertain to statins are concerns about adverse effects and lack of benefit on total mortality

Today, everybody should know that statins have side effects. Although most are relatively benign, serious life threatening adverse events have been reported. Such side effects are rare, but they are a cause for concern if millions of healthy people are to be treated with these drugs.

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How Common Are Side Effects of Statins?

The 2013 ACC/AHA recommendations on statins for healthy individuals mainly rely on evidence from meta-analyses of randomized clinical trials.  Part of the recommendations are based on risk calculation, assuming that when a certain amount of risk is present, the benefit of therapy outweighs the potential harm. However, there are some important questions remaining unanswered such as: How common are side effects from statins in real life, and does the current scientific literature provide reliable data to answer this question?

Recently a study was published in The European Journal of Preventive Cardiology addressing the side effects of statins compared with placebo among more than 80 thousand patients participating in randomized clinical trials of statins. Interestingly, apart from a slightly increased risk of diabetes and mild elevation of liver enzymes, side effects were not more common among patients receiving statins compared with those on placebo. The results have received a lot of media attention with headlines like: ‘Statins have virtually no side effects, study finds’. The Telegraph reports:

Researchers at Imperial College looked back at 29 trials involving more than 80,000 patients taking the cholesterol lowering drugs.

They concluded that the chance of experiencing debilitating symptoms like nausea and fatigue was slightly less among people taking statins than for control groups given a placebo. Now the scientists are calling for drug companies to make it clear on packets that side effects are uncommon so that people are not wrongly dissuaded from treatment.

Around seven million people take statins in Britain, a figure that could rise to 12 million under draft NHS guidelines, currently out for consultation, which will advise the majority of men over 50 and women over 60 to take the drug as a precaution.

Health experts have voiced concerns that the side effects could outweigh the benefits for healthy people.

One of the authors of the paper, Dr. Ben Goldacre has commented on the media reports on his website, Bad Science:

I was surprised to see a study I’m co-author on getting some front page media play today, under the headline “Statins have no side effects”. That’s not what our paper found…

Remarkably, people report typical statin side effects even when they are only receiving placebo: the phenomenon of people getting unpleasant symptoms simply because they expect to is fairly well documented, and it’s called the nocebo effect…

Assessing side effects of statins by using data from randomized clinical trials testing the efficacy of these drugs is problematic in many ways. First, these studies are not designed to study side effects. Second, methods used to detect and assess side effects are not defined. Third, sponsors of clinical trials may have limited interest in searching for potential side effects. Fourth, there is selection bias. Patients selected for participation in clinical trials have to fulfill certain criteria and therefore very often don’t reflect a “real life” patient population. Patients not eligible for clinical trials are often sicker, have more kidney failure, diabetes and high blood pressure. These individuals may have higher risk of side effects from statins. Fifth, many trials have placebo run-in periods to test compliance. This may further select highly motivated patents who are less likely to report side effects.

Dr. Ben Goldacre underlines the importance of having access to the Clinical Study Report (CSR) of a trial. Let me quote him:

These are very long and detailed documents that give a huge amount of detail about the methods and results of a trial, and they’re important, because methodological flaws can often be glossed over in the brief report on a clinical trial that appears as an academic journal paper.

I’d like to repeat the study, using the CSRs on the trials as the source data on the side effects, rather than the academic journal papers. That is a big piece of work because companies generally refuse to share CSRs…

What Are the Most Common Side Effects of Statins?

Liver and muscle problems are the most common side effects of statin therapy. Liver tests are usually monitored and the drug is stopped if there are significant abnormalities. Muscle ache is common. Muscle damage can occur and in rare cases it may become serious.There appears to be increased risk of diabetes on statin therapy. Some studies have reported changes in memory, attention, or concentration on statins.

There are some reports on changes in mood on statins.  These include loss of interest in activities and loss of interest in social involvement. Studies have confirmed that peripheral neuropathy (tingling and numbness or burning pain) may occur with statins. Sleep problems, sexual function problems, fatigue, dizziness and a sense of detachment are also reported with these drugs.

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Have YOU Experienced Side Effects from a Statin Drug?

Have YOU Experienced Side Effects from a Statin Drug?

It is of huge importance for clinicians and patients to have access to reliable information on the risk of side effects of statins. As doctors, we don’t want to inflict harm to our patients. On the other hand, the risk of side effects from statin therapy appears small. Therefore doctors can also inflict harm to their patients by exaggerating potential side effects which might lead to a patients unwillingness to accept treatment that is of potential benefit.

Recently, Rory Collins, a Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology at the University of Oxford was quoted in the Guardian saying that:

Doctors worrying about the safety of cholesterol-reducing statins are creating a misleading level of uncertainty that could lead to at the loss of lives…

On the other hand, rare side effects may become important when treatment is given to a large proportion of the population. We’ve recently had patients at our hospital with severe breakdown of skeletal muscle (rhabdomyolysis) resulting in serious kidney failure that appears to be directly associate with treatment with statin drugs.

There’s no doubt that a large majority of individuals taking statins don’t experience any problems with the drugs. However, a substantial number of people experience side effects. I fear these side effects are more common and sometimes more serious than the results from randomized clinical trials have suggested.

People who have experienced side effects often feel that they are not listened to. Many of these side effects are never reported. If you have any experience from statins, good or bad, no matter whether you are a patient, a medical professional or just a medical geek, here might be a good place to tell your story.

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peter hawkins
peter hawkins
6 years ago

Two months ago i had an arterial occlusion at age 62.. Other than that, I’m in great shape: no history, exercise daily, never smoked, not overweight, et al. It was easy to notice the side effects of the statin @ 80 mg. atorvastatin: a dark cloud, constant case of the runs, body aches. Cutting the dose to 20 mg. the side effects lessened proportionally. Switching to Crestor @ 10 mgs., the body aches increased. My choice is now, which of the alternative side effects are more bearable. Or, at what point do I simply stop taking this stuff?

Axel F Sigurdsson
Admin
Axel F Sigurdsson
6 years ago
Reply to  peter hawkins

Peter
Muscle ache is the most commonly experienced side effect of statins. Lowering the dose is sometimes helpful but not always. Changing to another statin drug may sometimes help as well. In my experience, muscle pain is the most common reason why people have to stop taking statins.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

Stephen Hovey
Stephen Hovey
1 year ago
Reply to  peter hawkins

my doc told me to try coq10 for the aches and it worked for me, but I guess it doesnt for everybody

Daci
6 years ago

1. Severe leg cramps. 2. Weakness. 3. Unsteadiness,fear of falling. 4. Memory problems,brain fog. 5. Problems concentrating. 6. Irritability. 7. Dizziness when leaning over and standing back up. 8. Disorientation. The scariest episode of this occurred in a grocery store. I could see where I was but could no longer tell which direction I was facing. This only lasted a few seconds,but it happened several other times out in the yard. 9 Wounds healing slowly. Needless to say I’ve stopped hateastatin against Dr’s orders and refuse to take them again. Dr. Wanted me to take Crestor next,which I find outrageous.… Read more »

david
david
3 years ago
Reply to  Daci

Please share your story at StatinVictims.com. We want to gather as many stories as possible in order to gain credence. I’m in your situation. David

Bryanbr Sandrin
Bryanbr Sandrin
1 month ago
Reply to  Daci

How long did you take the statins

thehomeschoolingdoctor

Do you think the reduction in Co Q 10 has implications whether the patient has noted side effects or not?

Axel F Sigurdsson
Admin
Axel F Sigurdsson
6 years ago

@ thehomeschoolingdoctor That’s a good question. In theory CoQ10 might reverse some of the side effects of statins. Some researchers have proposed that taking a coenzyme Q10 supplement might reduce the risk of these side effects. However, no large studies have confirmed this theory. There are mixed reports on the benefits of CoQ10 in helping statin-associated muscle pain. Most reviews highlight the lack of evidence to support routine CoQ10 supplementation even though there are few safety concerns with such supplementation. I have very limited experience myself with CoQ10 in the context of statin side effects but it seems that more… Read more »

Stephen Hovey
Stephen Hovey
1 year ago

It was the only way I could continue to take mine. The aches were so bad I just couldnt cope (I need to work).. coq10 resolved it.. and I know if I have forgotten to take that because I start hurting again.

charles grashow
charles grashow
6 years ago

I take 10mgs Atorvastatin/day. NO side effects at all. BUT – I also take, among other things, 200mgs CoQ10/day.

@Peter – why would your doctor put you on such a high dose of Atorvastatin? What were your lipids like? TC, LDL-C, HDH-C, Triglycerides, etc.

Are you and Daci aware that some of the statins are derived from mold. If you have an allergy to mold/yeast you may be experiencing side effects from the allergy.

Axel F Sigurdsson
Admin
Axel F Sigurdsson
6 years ago

Charles.

Some studies have indicated that higher dose statin therapy is more effective than lower dose therapy in patients with coronary disease. That’s why 80 mg daily of Atorvastatin is often prescribed for example following an acute myocardial infarction (acute coronary occlusion).

However, higher dose statins are associated with statistically significantly increased risks of muscle pain and abnormal liver function tests compared to lower dose statins

comedy79
comedy79
6 years ago

I was put on Krestor about 10 years ago, and suffered serious muscle pain. I couldn’t hang out a load of washing or make the bed without suffering serious muscle pain similar to over-use pain. We stopped that, and my doctor put me on Lipidil, which sent me to the brink of total kidney failure. So she said she’d find me something else to take, but I told her not to bother, because I wouldn’t take it. I’ve since moved to a very low carb/ultra high fat diet and my triglycerides and HDL are brilliant, while my LDL is high… Read more »

howfussiner
howfussiner
5 years ago
Reply to  comedy79

Have you recovered from the “side” effects? Any advice for those of us who have not?

Jennifer Anderson
Jennifer Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  howfussiner

I was only on a statin for a short time and now I have after two months sever shoulder muscle pain. I have RA but it was in remission and now I have no Idea what is going on so am going to a Rheumatologist soon. I would rather die than take that drug again! Life just isn’t worth putting yourself through that much pain and ending up in a wheelchair. All because of cholesterol numbers. There are some reports of people getting ALS and other debilitation muscle diseases after taking statins. Why are they not tell the public about… Read more »

charles grashow
charles grashow
6 years ago

“while my LDL is high but because the particle sizes are large”

Do you have test results – NMR/VAP – that show your LDL particles are large?

charles grashow
charles grashow
6 years ago

@Axel re the study you referenced “In closing, the current literature does prove conclusively that higher dose statin therapy (for example, 80 mg of simvastatin or atorvastatin) in patients with established CAD provides incremental benefits over and above those expected with lower dose statin therapy; however, this literature is insufficient to define optimal LDL targets in these patients. Secondary analyses of the existing randomized trial data using individual patient data and multivariate adjustment will be needed to appropriately examine the incremental benefits of different LDL targets (Hayward 2006), and future trials will have to determine whether lower dose statin therapy… Read more »

NateS
NateS
6 years ago

What they’ve done to me: Range of Motion: He shows decreased range of motion of supination bilaterally. He has adduction of the thumbs bilaterally. His hip abduction is 20 degrees on the right, 18 on the left. Straight leg raise is 45 degrees bilaterally. On the mat, he is unable to achieve neutral and remains in external rotation. His internal rotation is 0 degrees on the left that was on the right the previous. His dorsiflexion lacks 12 degrees on the right and 11 degrees on the left. Strengths: Hip abduction is 4- bilaterally. Hip extension is 4 on the… Read more »

nico
nico
6 years ago

Simvastatin 40mg/day three months later anxiety , memory loss , mood swings , anger , psychosis , aches , stiffness and general feeling of being unwell. Fortunately most of these side effects have now stopped or improved vastly since i stopped taking Statins . For me Statins have been a very scary dark experience.

Heather Barker
6 years ago

My husband had when he was placed on a statin and after only seven weeks he developed rhabdomyolysis, acute renal failure, then stroke. The ONLY reason his doctor put his on a statin was because of a family history. This was in 2002. While on a statin he had terrible nightmares, impotence, confusion, muscle pain…. Since then he has made great progress but has some residual problems with widespread pain, cognitive changes to name a few. I have read so much information in the last 11 years which contradicts everything I thought I knew about cardiovascular risk. In addition we… Read more »

Dolores G
Dolores G
6 years ago

I took 10mg of simvastatin for 1 year and 8 months while I tried to clean up my lifestyle by eating a low-fat, low-calorie diet and strenuously exercising 5-6 hours per week. I had always had muscle cramps in my legs and feet at night especially after a lot of physical activity, so I wasn’t too worried about the additional cramping that the statin and exercise caused. Months later, I started having serious muscle and joint pain in places that I never had pain before: Gout-like pain in my big toe and pain that shot up the side of my… Read more »

Peter Hawkins
Peter Hawkins
6 years ago
Reply to  Dolores G

Dolores G. In reading your reply I just took my Atorvastatin and threw it out. I’ve been on it for 3 months. Whatever good immediate effect it may have had, that period is over. I’m 62 and am an athlete. I’m noticing the very beginning symptoms of many of the issues you discuss. It’s easy to blame other things until I read your response. Thank you for sharing this valuable, life saving information.
Peter

JustMEinT
JustMEinT
6 years ago

Axel…. in the year 2001 after cardiac stenting I was placed on a multiplicity of ‘heart healthy’ drugs and went down in a physical heap almost immediately. Tests were run and nothing was found and NO BLAME was ever ascribed to cholesterol lowering medication. I was placed on statins and triglyceride lowering drugs, and they were changed several times by my cardiologist to try and get my ‘numbers’ lower etc. The drugs did not work and I went from being a normal healthy 47 year old to almost a complete invalid – including memory and speech issues almost overnight. I… Read more »

G. E. Mercer
G. E. Mercer
5 years ago
Reply to  JustMEinT

For over 75 years I rarely caught a cold. When I did it would be 2 or 3 years before another one. I am also a two time cancer survivor. In 2013 I developed CAD, had cardiac catheterization and 4 stents placed and was given a hand full of prescriptions for drugs that would ‘take care of the problem’. Unfortunately one Rx was for a statin drug. Physical/cardio therapy was also prescribed. After just 2 weeks on a treadmill my knees were so painful I had trouble just walking on a flat surface. Discussions about the pain with both the… Read more »

david venables
6 years ago

david venables March 31, 2014 I took simvastatin for seven short months, 20 mg. I stopped when my lower legs utterly locked up in bed one night. I now have what appears to be a lifetime neuromuscular disease. STATINS CAN HAVE HORRID ADVERSE EFFECTS. Here are some good predictors of who will get their lives destroyed, as I have: High HDLs, high LDLs, BUT great ratio (mine was under 3) Low triglycerides, high HDL’s, great ratio (mine was under .7) Physically very active. Older (I was 68 and had just returned from trekking in the Himalayan foothills.) One aspect of… Read more »

charles grashow
charles grashow
6 years ago

I am the ONLY person who has had NO SIDE EFFECTS??

crandreww1999
crandreww1999
4 years ago

@Charles….no side effects, yet…..

Jennifer Royals
Jennifer Royals
2 years ago

I didn’t have side effects that I noticed for the first 15 years. Then I noticed sore muscles and later started having bad muscle spasms in my hands, feet and legs. I also started having vivid dreams. These have all stopped after not taking statins. I do still take 200 magnesium a day to prevent muscle spasms. I watched my sister die with total muscle loss in her legs and she took a very high statin dosage.

Nern
Nern
6 years ago

Started taking 20mg Lipitor at the age of 46. Total cholesterol was about 275. Script was mainly due to a family history of heart disease. After several years, I started to develop quite a few aches and pains in my legs and ankles. This was very noticeable especially rising in the morning. A bit further in time, I started to notice that I was losing grip strength in my hands. After countless EMGs, MRIs, lumbar punctures, blood tests and a muscle biopsy, it was determined that I have sporadic Inclusion Body Myositis (sIBM). I stopped taking my statin at the… Read more »

Sandy Warren
6 years ago

I am taking this info to my Dr. to help determine why I continue to have sharp debilitating pain in my right thigh. I take the usual 20 mg. of Lipitor. After a fall last Sept. I started seeing a Chiropractor for sciatica on both sides…when I described the pain in my thigh it was diagnosed as “in conjunction” with my low back problem. Now, I’m not so sure. It is April 9th and the sciatica is better but the pain in my thigh continues. I liked reading the experience & tests given by those who had side effects of… Read more »

Andrés
Andrés
6 years ago

charles grashow said:

I am the ONLY person who has had NO SIDE EFFECTS??

You started taking CoQ10 on your own. Not that I think it corrects all the possible derangements. Statins should not be prescribe on primary prevention.

Kevin O'Connell
Kevin O'Connell
6 years ago

Rosuvastatin (Crestor 5mg) late 2006-late2011. ca. 2008 noticeable ‘sensations’ in my feet, memory lapses, gynecomastia,… Of course, it couldn’t have been the rosuvastation because it has no side effects. 2009 diagnosis of prostate cancer, steadily losing all feeling in soles of feet, memory problems worse,… Of course, it couldn’t have been the rosuvastation because it has no side effects. 2010 diagnosis of peripheral neuropathy Of course, it couldn’t have been the rosuvastation because it has no side effects. Consultant neurologist fingered the cordarone (Amiodarone) I had been taking. 2011 loss of balance, difficulty in walking, worse memory problems, worse gynecomastia,… Read more »

charles grashow
charles grashow
6 years ago

@Andres – I was taking CoQ10 BEFORE I started taking a statin drug – I just upped the dosage from 100 to 200mgs/day @Kevin – I currently take 5000 Vit D3/day – last blood test had level at 46 – I’m trying to get this to between 60-80 so I may increase the dosage to 10,000/day My last CT scan – 2/14 – CAC score was 48 – increase from 30 in 1/08 – so progression is slowing My goal is regression – per Dr William Davis Track Your Plaque program LDL MUST BE <60 for regression to occur –… Read more »

Mie
Mie
6 years ago

Kevin:

If the fact that statins have side effects came as a surprise to you, perhaps you ought to try reading the package labels. Or if you seriously believe that you can connect your statin use to everything deleterious under the sun that happened to you after starting statin therapy (e.g. cancer), perhaps you should google “post hoc ergo propter hoc”.

And since statins also have beneficial effects (which, in the population who should be taking statins, clearly outweigh the negative ones), the idea on “unstatinating” should be considered cautiously.

Bette
Bette
5 years ago
Reply to  Mie

Refer to: https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/spotlight/imports/long-term-use-of-statins-and-postmenopausal-breast-cancer-risk–.html

Long-term use of statins and postmenopausal breast cancer risk – research indictaes an association

Kevin O'Connell
Kevin O'Connell
6 years ago

Mie: My Latin is not too bad, thanks very much. I did read the AZN Crestor leaflet (probably more than my doctor did). In the small print on p15 (of 43!) there is a mention of some ‘very rare’ post-market adverse reactions, including memory loss and gynecomastia. The guff on p5 about CoQ10 is distinctly ‘weasel-worded’. However, like most (almost all?) patients, I was (at that time) relying on my doctors to look after me and warn me of potential problems. There is absolutely no mention of either peripheral neuropathy or cancer in the leaflet. That, despite the fact that… Read more »

Mie
Mie
6 years ago

Kevin: “In the small print on p15 (of 43!) there is a mention of some ‘very rare’ post-market adverse reactions, including memory loss and gynecomastia. The guff on p5 about CoQ10 is distinctly ‘weasel-worded’. However, like most (almost all?) patients, I was (at that time) relying on my doctors to look after me and warn me of potential problems.” If you’ve had a look at these leaflets, they’re always very long – due to the fact that all the possible side effects must be mentioned. As for “weasel-worded”: care to be more specific? You do realize that data on the… Read more »

Kevin O'Connell
Kevin O'Connell
6 years ago

CoQ10 – yes, word has been slow getting out, even though we’ve just passed the 25th anniversary of US Patent Application by Brown for Merck to combine CoQ10 with their statin. Patent 4,933,165 was granted in 1990. Cancer: a few refs for you: Polsky, Brown, Siperstein; Feedback control of cholesterol synthesis…; J.Clin.Invest (1973). Ravnskov, McCully, Rosch; The statin low cholesterol cancer conundrum; Q.J.Med (2011). Brown, Goldstein,Siperstein; Regulation of cholesterol synthesis in normal and malignant tissue; Fed.Proc. (1973) Siperstein; The relationship of cholesterol biosynthesis to cancer; Trans.Am.Clin.Climatol.Assoc (1972). Endo; The discovery and development of HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors; Journal of Lipid Research… Read more »

Mie
Mie
6 years ago

None of your references is relevant here. 1) The older references: did you read them? Presuming you did, did you know that a) the levels of LDL reduction produced by statins in no way goes beyond b) the physiological levels of circulating LDL shown to be optimal in the function of e.g. cholesterol receptors? Therefore, would you care to explain in your own words WHAT in these papers suggests that this level of cholesterol reduction could be carcinogenic? Go ahead. 2) Ravnskov et al is precisely the kind of BS you’d expect of him and his lackeys: epidemiological data indicating… Read more »

Bette
Bette
5 years ago
Reply to  Mie

Blah blah blah

Bette
Bette
5 years ago
Reply to  Mie

Not quite – recent research indicates an association between cancer and statins –

https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/spotlight/imports/long-term-use-of-statins-and-postmenopausal-breast-cancer-risk–.html

Z.M.
Z.M.
6 years ago

Mie: “Concerning de Lorgeril: if he has anything else to say about JUPITER than what he already published all the way back in 2006, please summarize it briefly. His criticism was duly answered & shot down by Ridker et al.” All Dr. de Lorgeril asks for is for properly conducted trials. BTW, de Lorgeril has more on his website including replies to Dr. Ridker. I more side with de Lorgeril because I can’t get over the premature discontinuation, inconsistent reporting, lack of CVD mortality benefit and uncertain mortality benefits, and obvious conflicts of interest. I don’t buy the explanations given… Read more »

Kevin O'Connell
Kevin O'Connell
6 years ago

Mie As someone who has suffered (a lot) from statin ‘therapy’, I thought I could make a useful contribution to this debate, especially since I have studied the biochemistry involved. However, I don’t have the time or inclination to discuss these matters with a committed statin supporter who has apparently unlimited time for this, and writes under an anonymous moniker of ‘Mie’… That made me suspicious and a quick Google revealed your comments (supporting statins and their wondrous wonders) on various sites. Just the first 2 pages of a not very ‘tight’ Google search produced your comments at: http://www.abc.net.au (concerning… Read more »

Mie
Mie
6 years ago

Z.M., we’d all want to see more rigorously conducted trials, yes. However, this doesn’t change what I stated above. If you want, please do raise one point which de Lorgeril has added to his initial criticism of JUPITER. The premature discontinuation certainly isn’t valid, unless he has been able to explicitly prove dishonesty/fraud in the decision. As far as the lack of reduction of CVD mortality goes, you do realize that a) this was a trial in primary prevention setting with people who had more or less normal LDL levels and that b) two years is too short a time… Read more »

Z.M.
Z.M.
6 years ago

Mie: “As far as the lack of reduction of CVD mortality goes, you do realize that a) this was a trial in primary prevention setting with people who had more or less normal LDL levels and that b) two years is too short a time to show anything solid in this kind of population?” Yes, I do realize those factors as possibilities, but this does not change the fact that a CVD mortality (and CHD mortality) benefit was not shown, and so cannot be claimed. If the trial wasn’t prematurely discontinued, we would have gotten a clearer picture of what… Read more »

Z.M.
Z.M.
6 years ago

Mie: “As far as the lack of reduction of CVD mortality goes, you do realize that a) this was a trial in primary prevention setting with people who had more or less normal LDL levels and that b) two years is too short a time to show anything solid in this kind of population?” Yes, I do realize those factors as possibilities, but this does not change the fact that a CVD mortality (and CHD mortality) benefit was not shown, and so cannot be claimed. If the trial wasn’t prematurely discontinued, we would have gotten a clearer picture of what… Read more »

charles grashow
charles grashow
6 years ago

@Z.M
@Mie

I too have been banned by Dr. Briffa – seems the good doctor cannot take criticism

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